Bob Brundage – Well hi again, this is Bob Brundage. Today is July the 8th, 2010 and today we have the pleasure of talking with Cathie Burdick out in Ticonderoga, New York. Cathie is one member of the team of Stan and Cathie and their accomplishments over the years have been their Member(ship) in the Square Dance Foundation of New England’s Hall of Fame, they were given the prestigious Milestone Award from Callerlab. They were also given the Silver Spur Award from the American Square Dance Society. They were very active early on in the formation of Callerlab, served on the Board of Governors and actually operated as Secretary for a while and also somehow found the time to publish a little magazine called American Squaredance. So, outside of that they didn’t have anything to do sorry to say. But Cathie, why don’t you tell us a little about your family background.
Cathie Burdick – OK. I was born in Bristol, Rhode Island and grew up there until I graduated from college and went to Connecticut to work for the Girl Scouts. My mother and dad started to square dance in 1948 and they went to a lot of Charlie Baldwin’s dances in southern Massachusetts which was not very far from us. They went to his camp in 1953 up in the Berkshires, persuaded me since I was out working and had not been home for a year that I should go on vacation with them and that’s where I got reacquainted with Stan. I had met him at Girl Scout Camp when the Girl Scouts and the Y people used to have joint square dances, again in southern Rhode Island, but we met again at Charlie’s camp and kind of got together – went together for two years before we got married. My folks in the meantime decided the camping situation wasn’t for them and they went to the hotel Thayer and danced with your brother, Al ….
BB – Ah ha.
CB – …. and went back, I don’t know exactly how many times but they enjoyed those weekends, they liked to be a little more plush. So that’s … in a capsule that’s how I got going.
BB – Good. Well, that answers the next question I had. “What was your introduction to square dancing in the first place”. So, I believe you were married in 1955 ….
CB – Right.
BB …. and then, according to what I’ve read, I think it was 1966 that you decided, you and Stan decided, that you would go into square dancing full time and ah, well before we get too far into this ….
CB – I think I have to correct you on that, it was ’68 …
BB – Oh, OK
CB – …. we took over the magazine. Stan had been work … he worked for … he left the YMCA and then he worked for a year setting up programs for a senior apartment building …
BB – Ah ha,
CB – …. square dancing being among them of course. So then we had the chance to buy the magazine for a dollar from Arvid Olsen. That was … the first issue we put out was Septem … or Oct … no it was September of 1968.
BB – OK. So, I started to say, before we get too far along, did you ever do any calling yourself?
CB – Oh yes. (Laughs) Not very successfully. When we went to Camp Beckett with Charlie Baldwin he used to run caller’s classes and Stan was interested in learning more and I went with him, as young couples do. I tried once there and Charlie told me never to call again.
BB – (Laughs)
CB – However, over the years … we developed quite a program up here at Silver Bay, New York at the YMCA Conference Center and we did the square dancing there for 47 years, Stan did the square dancing.
BB – Yes.
CB – But the evening began with a half hour of Toddler’s dancing and I did that, (Laughs) circles, you know what used to be called Play Party Games or Big Circles … then with the middle aged group of kids … oh, I would say eight to twelve year olds we used to do things like the Virginia Reel. And yes … in a little later years, in the ‘70s, there were years when Stan was traveling and I filled in and did the square dancing at Silver Bay. But I am not a singer and I sort of chant at the dancers and I wasn’t … I kept the program going but it wasn’t as good as Stan’s (laughs) and I … you know, was never … I can teach but I’m not a good caller.
BB – OK. How about, do you cue rounds?
CB – Yes, I did that.
BB – Ah ha. Did you get involved in the traditional style of dancing or was it mostly modern western?
CB – No, we did a little bit of everything. When we started in the old days, in the 50’s, even at the square dance camps there was folk dancing….
BB – Yes.
CB – …. and we liked pretty much all kinds of dancing. So those were the kinds of things we taught to children. I taught a lot of Girl Scouts ….
BB – Ah ha
CB …. over the years because I was always involved with the Girl Scout movement. I taught a lot of Girl Scouts to dance in order to get their Folk Dancing Badge ….
BB – I see.
CB …. but I could do that and cue without having to call. (laughs)
BB – Yes.
CB – …. so that was easier for me to do. But yes, we did folk dancing. We did traditional and what we have done up here at Silver Bay is far more … has almost always been …. it’s not pure traditional but it’s very easy (laughs) like square dancing so it was sort of a mix.
BB – Yes.
CB – There was a little western flavor to the calling, you know Stan did hoedowns, but we still did some of the old traditional dances.
BB – Ah ha. OK. Now, let’s get talking about American Squaredance Magazine. Before we get too far along, do I remember that it actually went by a couple of different names at one time? I mean, wasn’t it called American Squares and then sometimes it was called American Squaredance Magazine?
CB – Yes. It started out as American Squares …..
BB – I see.
CB – ….and then I think Arvid changed it to Square Dance.
BB – Magazine…. OK .
CB – We didn’t really like that. We thought we should keep the ‘American’ word in there so went back, put American back in and made Square Dance one word…..
BB – Yes, I see,
CB ….which would have been fine for the computer age but we were way ahead of that.
BB – Right, OK. Then getting back to the roots of the magazine, I believe it was Charlie Thomas that started it?
CB – Yes, in 1945.
BB – OK. That I didn’t know but …. and I remember Rickey Holden was part of that?
CB – I think he was a successor editor in New Jersey, yes when he was in that area for a while, uh huh.
BB – Yeah, and then Frank Kaltman was also part of that?
CB – Yes.
BB – In the early days at least?
CB – I think Frank Kaltman had it before it went out to Arvid in …. Arvid Olsen in Chicago.
BB – Oh, I see.
CB – I think.
BB – OK, well I remember some of the record reviews that Kaltman used to put in.
CB – Oh, he pulled no punches did he?
BB – He spoke his mind that’s for sure. CB – He sure did.
BB – Yep. If he didn’t like a record he’d really blast it. But anyway, according to my estimate you published about 275 issues.
CB – Well I really never multiplied it out but it was 23 years and about three months. We sold it at the end of 1991.
BB – OK. Very good. Well, what was your job in all this now? As Editor and Publisher you did all the grunt work?
CB – Well, in those 23 years, most of those 23 years Stan was building a traveling caller career as well. So, people used to say to him I don’t know how you can travel and get the magazine out (laughs) but I and the staff at home were the answer to that. We had some very good friends who came to work with us. They were all part time but, at one time we had about six and we managed to put the thing together. We had a lot of good contributing writers who were very prompt about sending things in but we got it all type set. Type setting in those days was a lot more laborious than it is … it was less laborious than having to set the type but it was more so than working on the computers of today. But, we did that. We …. I made out most of the ads and things. Stan wrote his monthly ‘Meanderings’ and some other things. A very little known fact is that I always wrote the editorials, but I mean, Stan always wanted me to sign them but I never would because, even in those days I felt that no one would listen to a woman.
BB – (Laughs) OK.
CB – So, I never would put my name but once in a while I wrote an article and used the pseudonym called, Lib Eddy which stood for Liberated Editor.
BB – Ah. I see.
CB – Now the secrets can come out. Now that we’re retired from it so long.
BB – Right. Right. Well, I made a note here of course in those days you had to use a typewriter didn’t you?
CB – We started out on a typewriter, an IBM typewriter on which you typed everything twice. You typed it once and a little color code came up and then you typed it again to justify it. That’s when justification was still in vogue.
BB – Ahh. I had never heard of that.
CB – And we went from that to, I suppose an early form of computerize when you typed in … you could see one line at a time come up and if you caught a mistake in that one line you were OK but otherwise you had to cut and paste your mistakes in after, I mean your corrections in afterward (laughs). We did a lot … everything was cut and paste in those days. You made up the ads, you pasted them in place. The articles were pasted, the backs of the articles waxed and pasted in place on the boards. I mean now, I’m amazed that the booklets I put together now for some organizations and it just floats out of the computer all ready to go….
BB – Yes, right.
CB – ….or I can put it on a CD and send it to the printer, you know. We’ve come a long way but it was fun. But seeing each magazine come out was really fun. It was a very satisfying job.
BB – I’ll bet. I’ll bet. Yeah. Tell me about some of the contributors you had over the years.
CB – Oh my. Well, Bob Howell probably was with us the longest and, I think, the last I knew, up until his recent death, he was still doing it for American Squaredance in Florida. He was doing his Easy Dances. Walt Cole wrote an article for us until his death. Those are the two I think of first because they were friends of ours. We had some pretty regular people. Once in a while we ran fiction stories about square dancing. We had a woman who used to send us – I can’t for the life of me remember her name, I’m sorry but I … she sent us things periodically that we used.
BB – OK. Well, that pretty much covers what I had in mind.
CB – Well, in the first list of all the things you talked about you neglected to mention Legacy.
BB – No, I’m going to be talking about …. Yes … I did have … I had a note here and I forgot it. Yes.
CB – Well, I just wanted to mention it because that was another thing we were very involved in.
BB – Yes, I know that. Right. Well, Let’s talk about that as long as we’re here. I think you were very instrumental in the organization of Legacy in the first place.
CB – The three men had a meeting in Cleveland, Charlie Baldwin, and Stan and Bob Osgood and about that …. there were some misdirection’s coming about and that maybe we needed to get together and talk to try to keep some things. I think – one of the things seemed to be Hot Pants. Which was quite a hot item at one time and appeared here and there at conventions or on the dance floor and people were concerned about costumes and that kind of thing. But there were some other things happening too and so they decided to pull together a group of leaders. Well, of course we hosted the first one in Cleveland which was nearest to us so at that point I immediately became involved. But we worked on it all along. We were kind of picked as Secretaries of it for a little bit and then we were, also at one point Chairmen later on. So we were very involved with Legacy for many years.
BB – Right. I hated to see it go actually but uh …
CB – We did a lot of leadership training. I think it was …. Well a lot of the people in the original Legacy group went and did what they called Mini-Legacies around in various states and talked about, you know how to be leaders, how to run a club, how to do this and how to do that. That was a lot of fun too (laughs).
BB – Well, I remember good friends up in Vermont, Peg and Doc Tirrell.
CB – Oh yes.
BB – They were very involved in Legacy I know.
CB – Which reminds also me also that we had several different people doing Round Dance Reviews for us … but … for the magazine and Square Dance Reviews, I mean record reviews. But Doc and Peg were good friends of ours and they …. I worked on many a panel at the National Conventions with Peg. We always seemed to end up together and, of course she was an old Girl Scout too so we had a lot in common. They did a lot, they did a lot for square dancing.
BB – Yes. They were a wonderful couple and I hated to see Doc pass away. Ok, well, along about this same time you mentioned that Stan was doing a lot of traveling. You must have done some along the way yourself. I understand you also ran some cruises and, you know trips where you took dancers along with you?
CB – Yep, at least…. the way we could do that, well we would work like crazy ahead of time, do all we could and then the staff was very good about carrying on and getting things done. When we sold the magazine after 23 years I was very proud to say that we had never missed a deadline. We always came out on time but we did … we took 20 tours before we were through. We had had the magazine about five years when Stan got itchy feet and thought we could run a cruise, I mean run a trip to Australia – that was the first one in 1973 and on the way to Australia we stopped in Hawaii to refuel and Hawaii was so beautiful we took people back there and eventually ended up going to Africa, China … and that was in the days when travel was easy and tour agents were looking for groups that wanted travel together. So the perks were good and they did everything they could to insure a nice trip and also, we really enjoyed that.
BB – Yes. OK. Well, and so Stan I guess did some traveling by himself.
CB – Oh, I didn’t like ….there was no way I could travel with him as a traveling caller. He called in every state and every Province of Canada because, after we moved up here we even got to go to Newfoundland for a weekend. I went along on that one. But most of …. I think there have only been two countries …he went to Panama to do a dance with Bill Bailey. I could always remember that because of the song but Bill Bailey was a well known caller. Always came to conventions and was in Panama so Stan went down there and I didn’t get to go to that one and see the Panama Canal. But when we were in Africa I went up in a balloon and my balloon came down in a different country than Stan’s so I got one country on him too (laughs). We always have this little thing but when he was going to somewhere really exciting, I mean out of the country and stuff, those were mostly joint trips. He would travel a lot in this country. I can’t think of the caller’s name that lived in Lake Tahoe, I mean State Line. He said, “I used to sit down and read ‘Meanderings’ and then I’d have to go take a nap”.
BB -Yes. Yeah. I remember reading them as well.
CB – Yeah. But Stan loved it. He loved to travel.
BB – Well, along this same line, how about conventions and National Conventions and festivals and things?
CB – I think we went to every National Convention while we had the magazine. We started … the first one we went to was Seattle in 1969. In those days our kids were … our daughter didn’t go with us at first, she was too young, but the two boys went with us and helped us in the booth. So it became a family affair and then later on we took one … usually a staff member with us. And we always ended up … and we had to have someone to cover the booth because we would end up on panels and things.
BB – Yes (chuckles) and along at the same time you still maintained a home club program.
CB – Yes. We had … Stan wasn’t doing it all. He did for a while. Clubs seem to come and go but we did have a ….once we got to know a lot of traveling callers we had a Monday night dance right in the little town we lived in in Ohio at the church across the street. We had a lot of people … they would stop there, you know on their way home from a weekend of traveling or something, so we hosted a lot of callers there and that was fun. We had a lot of friends and acquaintances from all over the country and even a few, you know a few from overseas. I was in the Amsterdam airport one day coming back from one of our trips and I heard someone say, “Cathie. Cathie, Cathie” and I turned around and there was Jacque Franzen’s wife. They knew us from conventions ….Round … we went to Roundalab once. We knew them from that. So you never knew … know, you know, where people were going to turn up. The square dance community was a great one. I mean people were….people were close and friendly. Even my folks found that, just in their small community. They had quite a group they traveled with and were … they got together and socialized other than the square dancing but they all square danced together and that was great. In our community, because of the magazine, spanned the country, it was different, but it was the same in a way (laughs).
BB – Yes. Well, you had overseas subscribers. CB – Oh yes. Yep.
BB – All right. Well, what about Cathie today. When I originally contacted you we had the date to do this last Saturday and all of a sudden you sent me an email and said you had to postpone that because you had …. let’s see, you called it a ….
CB – Fundraiser
BB – …. fundraiser for a Festival Guild.
CB – Uh huh. I have a part time job still as Director of the Ticonderoga Festival Guild which sounds like a …. (chuckles). Actually what we do is put on six evening concerts in the summertime. The first one was Tuesday night and six free programs for children on Wednesday mornings in the performing arts. And last Saturday we were outside Wal-Mart here putting people in jail, and raising money. Those people had to pay bail to get them out of jail. Oh, we raised about $100 an hour because we made $507. For Ticonderoga that’s good – doesn’t sound tremendous, but that’s good. That’s another interesting job. It’s a fun job. Before we …. we had come to this area a long time before we decided to retire up here, but I remember reading in the paper once about this festival here and they were advertising for a director. This was in the early ‘90s and I thought, well that’s a job I could do. But in 1997 they lost the director they had and our Choir Director knew me and said, “Would you just come and get us through the summer?” I’ve been there ever since. But that’s fun. But again, we book the artists. They come, they do the programs. It’s not a lot of work. I have some young people that do the grunt work for me so I don’t work hard at it. Most of it is mental. Writing grants, you know I mean, the work goes on all year with trying to raise the money and stuff to support it but it’s a fun job.
BB – What about other – any other community work? How about your church?
CB – Well, I’ve run a discussion group at the church since fall of 1993 when we moved up here. We’ve met … we don’t meet in the summer but we meet once a week. We discuss different books – sometimes really religious but sometimes just social issues and things. I’ve been an Elder. Stan’s a Deacon right now. We’re …. I also do the newsletter every two months (laughs).
BB – Naturally.
CB – Some things you never get out of, you know (laughs)
BB – Yes. Right, so ….
CB – So I was active with Girl Scouts until about 2005 and then, I had to drive an hour to council meetings and things and then they merged with another council so they’re now way down … as it expands Albany to the Canadian border and that’s more driving than I want to do at night and stuff now so I sort of backed out. So I don’t have any commitment to Girl Scouts. I belong to a book club and I have the church discussion.
BB – Yeah. You know I just realized – I don’t think I ever asked anybody of all the interviewing I did – are you involved in politics at all?
CB – No.
BB – Locally, right, no.
CB – No.
BB – I don’t know why it just came to my mind.
CB – I’m nosy about it sometimes but that’s as far as it goes. I mean, I do contact people but no, I’ve never gotten involved with politics.
BB – OK. Do you have any regrets? Is there anything you wish you’d done differently?
CB – Hmmm. No, there are a couple of these places I would have liked to have gotten to before I …. traveling is difficult now. I stopped square dancing in ‘97. Yeah I have regrets that I can’t still dance. I have a very arthritic leg with some sort of a sciatic involvement so I limp a little and if I try to square dance, which I’ve done a few times, I just pay for it the next day so I’ve learned to take it easy but music still ….music still sets my feet tapping and I would like to be able to get up and dance. That’s the most regret I have.
BB – Right. Well, you’ve certainly had an active life, that’s for sure and the square dance community should thank you profusely for all you’ve done.
CB – Well, it was great fun and I owe a lot to square dancing (laughs). It put … the magazine we always said, put three kids through college and took us around the world and what more could you ask. We got a great deal from it while we were, I hope, contributing something.
BB – Yep, which leads into my next question and that is – what do you consider your most worthy accomplishments?
CB – Oh my (chuckles). One of the things I think – and I don’t know …. I shouldn’t say maybe anything because I don’t know about the present state of square dancing ….but one of the things that I felt I really had in hand in changing was that I kept saying that it was alright to wear prairie skirts to square dancing. You didn’t have to wear the big petticoats if you didn’t want to.
BB – Yes.
CB – I think we did a lot of things and they’re hard to judge. It’s like being asked to judge the effects of our ARTS program up here and I keep telling the grant people, you really can’t judge. You don’t know what effect your having on those children until they grow up. I don’t know what affect all those leadership clinics for Legacy had on people. But I suspect you don’t go to a weekend like that where friendships are formed and people get closer to each other and they listen to all these ideas and things, without it changing something. Except that, I can’t measure what it does. All I can do is hope that it did, you know?
BB – Yes.
CB – So, I would consider some of those ….I mean. We did some together. Stan did some alone. I was very proud a couple of times when I got asked to do one by myself. Then we can only hope that all of that material that we tried to dispense had some affect on people, you know, out of square dancing. I guess that’s what I’d have to say.
BB – OK, which brings up what happened to all that material that you put out? Is it still around? Are some of these copies still available somewhere?
CB – The Square Dancing, the magazines you mean?
BB – No, the training manuals and things like that now that …now that you’re not involved in American Squares and Sets In Order is gone and ….
CB – The archives, you know Bill Litchman’s archive has copies of everything and they have copies of all our books so I presume they have the leadership manuals and stuff. Then there is the Square Dance Foundation [of New England] … that’s what we took over a few years back. We made a trip to Manchester with a whole bunch of stuff and took a lot of that kind of stuff over to the Foundation. So there are places like that where things … you know, where information is still available.
BB – How about …. I’m thinking of the USDA, do they have any of that material or does Callerlab have any of it do you know?
CB – I don’t know. I don’t know. I really have no idea. I’ve lost contact completely with USDA whether they’ve set up an archives or not I don’t know.
BB – Yeah – Were you ever involved with them?
CB – Not really. They….they were kind of competitors of Legacy. It was sort of, you know, I don’t know if you were one of ….
BB – Yeah. No, I think you’re right. I never thought of it that way but they were friendly competitors. How about ARTS? Did you ever get involved with that?
CB – No.
BB – Well, of course that just came along recently (laughs) sort of ‘after your time’.
CB – Yeah. Well, Stan maintains his membership in Callerlab but we’re, you know, he is not active or anything in it and I’ve lost track. I decided …. in 1997 we tried to train another couple to take over the square dancing at Silver Bay. They did it for about a year and gave it up. Stan went back. He’s still doing the Monday night dances down there but, at that point I had given my records to Sarah and she passed them on to Silver Bay and so I never went back to it at all. I said to Stan, I said I was going to retire from it and I’ve retired”. So I haven’t done anything at all and we haven’t been active so I don’t really even know what’s out there …. I read the Callerlab Bulletins when they through on email but that’s about the extent of it.
BB – Well, I usually ask everyone I talk to … to give me some kind of indication, even though you’ve been sort of out of square dancing recently … do you have any idea where you think square dancing might be going?
CB – Well, yes. I don’t know from this area. There is a very active group of square dancers called The Hudson Valley Dancers and Ralph Sweet from Connecticut came up to call for them …. oh, it’s got to be about 7 or 8 years ago down in Lake George at the YMCA camp and he said, “Why don’t you come down and drop in?” So we went down on the Friday night and I was very encouraged by what I saw. It’s not …. it’s a little more traditional than what we used to see but …. and it was fast. I mean, there was almost no way I could even keep up with it but those people were having an enormous amount of fun and they’re a strong group. They run special weekends, they have a Dance Flurry in Saratoga every year. It’s a huge event and they’ve had some dances up at Silver Bay, this same group. They’re very strong in the area and I think that … you know, I don’t think that we’re ever going to see square dancing again in the shape it was in that we experienced in the ‘60s and ‘70s with the formal costumes. There are still, there are still western groups around with the costumes. There’s a group up north of us, up near the Canadian line and I see their pictures in the paper and everything but they’re a small group. They’re a very active group but they’re smaller. But I think what we’ll see maybe is more ….this group here in our area goes back to the late 40’s where you could walk in and square dance and yet, I was amazed at the enthusiasm ….well, it made me very hopeful, I said, “well, square dancing isn’t going to die out” and they love to contra dance. So, groups like that I think will keep it alive and maybe we’ll see another wide-spread movement of the kind that Lloyd Shaw started again but I don’t think it will ever be …. well things don’t … they recycle but they don’t come back in the same shape they were in. We won’t see it exactly the way it was in our hey day.
BB – Right. Well, you were in it in the boom times and most of the people I have talked with …the “Old Timers” as they say, usually contend that they just happened to get into this square dance thing just at exactly the right time.
CB – Right. We kind of grew up with it.
BB – Yes, just after World War II and I know in New England … you were probably not in New England when Herb Greggerson came through and introduced us to Do Paso and Allemande Thar.
CB – No.
BB – That was the beginning of ….
CB – Western style.
BB – Yeah. Western style square dancing.
CB – A man named Jim, from Texarkana come to Becket and he started it there. This was after Herb Greggerson. I remember hearing about Herb Greggerson but I’ve never met him. But we got the square dance magazines way back then. My folks got them so we used to see all these names and knew them. I can’t think of this Jim’s last name but he came to Becket as the guest western caller and he was the one who introduced us to that and I can remember the hard time we had learning some of those calls. We worked and worked and worked until we got them right but …
BB – Yes. There’s a funny story about learning some of the complicated figures … when Teacup Chain came out my brother and his wife were at my house in Connecticut and we were …. we had just heard about Teacup Chain and so we were all sitting on the living room floor …. it was Halloween time so we had red and black jellybeans that we put so we tried to move these jellybeans around to learn how to do Teacup Chain and, all of a sudden we realized that one of them was missing and so we just replaced it and went on and a little later another jellybean was gone. Come to find out my little puppy that I had was sneaking in while we were all talking and grabbing one and escaping with it. (Cathie laughs)
CB – One of my early memories of square dancing … and I didn’t always go with my folks because I didn’t always have someone who I could dance with. One of their friends had a son my age that I went with sometimes to the dances. But I can remember them coming home and the next morning there would be great discussion in the kitchen which was the only room big enough and they would be trying out the round dances, the in-between dances. They were almost sort of folk dances like Road To The Isles and some of those trying to work those out again the next morning. (laughs)
BB – Right. Right. I guess we all went through that.
CB – I guess so.
BB – Yeah. Was the caller that you are referring to Texas Jim Brower by any ….
CB – Yes. Brower just left my memory. Yes, Jim Brower.
BB – Yeah, we…. I played golf with him several times when he came through. Yeah, he was s good caller.
CB – Right. Well, we were in Connecticut with you, you remember ….you probably remember us from the Connecticut Callers.
BB – Oh yes, the Connecticut [Caller’s Association].
CB – From ’55 to ‘59 and then we moved to Ohio.
BB – Yes, right. I remember that. And, of course you remember Fran who is gone. So well, I think I have covered all of the, most of the questions that I had.
CB – Ok, well I thank you.
BB – Well how about you? You must have some things that I might have missed that you’d like to tell us about.
CB – I don’t know. I think you’ve pretty well covered everything Bob. I can’t think of anything else.
BB – OK. Well, I certainly do thank you for taking the time to sit down with me this morning and, this afternoon for you.
CB – Right.
BB – I certainly wish you a lot of luck in all of your future endeavors and I’m sure you’re going to continue your community work….
CB – As long as I can.
BB – …. and your local people will be beneficiaries of all your hard work. So again, thank you very much Cathie and so, with that why don’t we call this the end of the tape.
(End of tape – End of interview with Cathie Burdick)